Posts by Juan Viejo2

33

Rutherford Interviews about Beth Sarim

by brotherdan in

but i thought it was very insightful as to the craziness of rutherford.

in these articles, he is interviewed by the san diego sun and time magazine.

i'd like to know what everyone thinks!

Juan Viejo2

The local press must have thought Joseph Rutherford to be certifiably nuts.

Can you believe that this guy had any credibility?

Why would the princes of the Old Testament show up in San Diego? If they were going to be resurrected, wouldn't it be logical for them to pop up out of the dirt or appear on a mountainside somewhere in the Middle East?

And Samson? Shaving? He was specifically ordered by Jehovah not to shave his beard or cut his hair.

The WT Society, especially during Rutherford's time, was run by loonies. The whole religion is based on insanty.

23

What is the point of praying?

by hoggieman in

hi, i dont post here too often, but i was reading the other post about why bad things happen, and i am curious for everyones thoughts on this: i have recently left about 9 months ago.

at first i thought i was closer to god and was reading the bible more than ever.... praying asking for help, clarity, etc.....but after a while i started to ask myself why would god answer my messily little prayers when hundreds of thousands were dieing in haiti?

the witness mindset that i remember was not to pray for things to happen, but for strength for yourself to do something.

Juan Viejo2

1970's Los Angeles radio comedians, Hudson and Landry, had a ongoing routine about the First Church of Throckmorton. "Emperor" Hudson was the high priest of the church and would ramble on about some "great religious truth" or answer Landry's questions about the teachings of FCoT.

Landry asked if believers "prayed."

"Of course, we pray to the Great God Throckmorton!" Hudson replied.

"Are your prayers ever answered?"

"Just the same as in any other church, but we're a lot cheaper."

"Well, what if I prayed for peace in the world?"

"Then somewhere in the world there would be peace! Might be only on Antartica, but there'd be peace."

"Do you ever pray for good health?"

"All the time. In fact, just the other night over at the church we were having a little taste of the grape and all said 'Here's to your health'! We were all feeling really good later that evening."

It was funnier listening to these two go through their routine - but there was a lot of truth to what they were joking about. They were clearly making a point.

Prayer is really about talking to yourself - getting off alone and clearing your head. I'm sure a lot of prayers were said in Haiti and Chile during the earthquakes, but still people died by the hundreds. What saved people was not prayer, but modern reinforced building construction - or being in the right place at the right time.

Can you really imagine Jehovah or Jesus actually paying any attention to the sleep inducing prayers given by the brothers before and after a KH meeting? They never really say anything or ask for anything substantial, but just drone on seemingly forever. Don't you think that just going to the KH and spending a couple of hours is enough to prove to God that you give a damn? Do you have to also tell him twice what He already knows?

63

A Question To All on this Board

by kes152 in

jw
friends

hello,.

i have been reading this board for some time and would like to ask: why you come here and post?

what do you all hope to accomplish by being here?.

Juan Viejo2

This is a great resource for updated news and gossip. I find that I can get more direct information about what the JWs believe and do now than I can from the WT CD. This is a great place to visit, and with only a few exceptions, everyone is friendly, helpful, and eager to share what they know.

3

Can anyone help these folks with info?

by Juan Viejo2 in

i received this request for help through my contact page at www.ex-jw.com.

greetings from isiro, dr congo, my name is john vandermeer.

my wife and i work with wycliffe bible translators in providing technical support to the work in this vast african nation.. as i write this email, i am listening to the loud pa system at a local jehovah witness meeting.

Juan Viejo2

I received this request for help through my contact page at www.Ex-JW.com.

Greetings from Isiro, DR Congo, My name is John VanderMeer. My wife and I work with Wycliffe Bible Translators in providing technical support to the work in this vast African nation.
As I write this email, I am listening to the loud PA system at a local Jehovah Witness meeting. I am wondering if you could help me locate some material in French (Lingala and Swahili is good too) either printed or video, that could help the local Christians discern the difference in the gospel message being offered at the meeting.
After church this morning, I asked our pastor if he understood what the JW believed and what they were teaching. He confessed that he did not. I believe that this is typical of many living here. Many are led to believe that JW is just another Christian church. I do not believe this to be true.
If you can help with some material that I could leave with the pastors to look at, that they can alert the congregations the differences between the gospel message in the Bible and what is being proposed here, that would really help. For printed material, I could try downloading it with this slow internet connection. If there was a video in the French language (or in Lingala/Swahili), I could provide an US mailing address of someone leaving early August for the DRC.
Thank you for whatever you can do to help inform the Christians in the DRC. Blessings in your ministry. John

I have checked this out online and it seems to be a legitimate request for help.

The organization that Mr. Vandermeer works with, besides the Wycliffe Bible Translators, is SIL International. Their website can be accessed here. On their website, they describe one of the goals of their organization this way:

"SIL works in partnership with local speakers to develop new written and oral materials in their mother tongue. The kind of materials is determined by the community, and might include print, audio or video items. Content covers a variety of subjects such as primers, folk stories, textbooks, health and hygiene guidelines, games, history, etc. In addition to new materials, local workers are trained to adapt or translate literature from other languages on subjects such as nutrition, farming, health (including HIV/AIDS) and Scripture texts. SIL also works with communities to foster the effective use of these materials." Link to this page: http://www.sil.org/sil/

I do not have access to any of the kinds of materials that he is looking for. I will send him links to some of the great websites that have PDF versions of some of the old WT publications, but maybe if someone has a French language version of CoC or In Search of Christian Freedom, that might give him enough background to get him started.

I don't know if there are any French language ex-jw websites based in Canada or Europe that he can refer to, but if you do, please let me know.

Mr. Vandermeer can be reached by email. Rather than publish it here, please reply to this posting or PM me - and I will be happy to provide it to you.

It looks like this fellow is really trying to help out the locals. It is no secret that the WT has made huge inroads into the African continent and that thousands of native Africans seem to be drawn to the JW message. This might be an excellent opportunity to slow that progress a bit.

25

Holy Spirit and Governing Body voting

by Think About It in

how in the world can a religious organization that claims to be god's true channel on earth and led my his holy spirit have a majority of it's gb members vote yes on something, but it not pass because 2/3's didn't vote yes?

why would these supposely "spirit annointed" leaders of the "only true religion" not all be lead by holy spirit to pass an important mandate or change?

in coc ray franz talks of jw life affecting voting not passing because although it was a majority, it wasn't 2/3's or a gb member was gone during the vote.

Juan Viejo2

This was exactly the point that "Shadow Elder" made in his contributed article to Ex-JW.com in August, 2009.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses – Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom book describes the process of gaining full understanding of the truth as entering a dark room and allowing the light to shine brighter gradually until the room is fully lit. At the same time they wrote, “…Truth remains truth. Jehovah’s will and purpose, as outlined in the Bible, remain fixed…But their [the WT organization’s] understanding of these truths gets progressively clearer ‘at the proper time,’ Jehovah’s due time.”
It makes no sense that honest debate about the truth of certain beliefs can be treated as a sin against the Holy Spirit, while the final version of the “truth” is still being fine tuned. After all, the Governing Body VOTES on what new teachings will be published or presented at our assemblies. Does that mean that their debates and votes are also a sin against the Holy Spirit? If the Governing Body is acting under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, shouldn’t all their votes be unanimous? Are those who voted against the majority being influenced by Satan? After the vote is taken, why should that particular teaching ever be changed due to “new light”? Does not the Holy Spirit know what is true and what is not? Or does the Holy Spirit inspire the Governing Body to purposely publish incorrect information from time to time – just to keep us off-kilter? This entire concept of the Governing Body being guided by Holy Spirit is frankly ridiculous and inconceivable.
I feel that the Watchtower Society is totally wrong by holding this unsupported position. After all, very few of the teachings of Russell and Rutherford are still held to be “truth.” Where was the Holy Spirit prior to Rutherford’s death in 1942, back when almost every Witness was considered to be a member of the Anointed remnant? Who was guiding the leadership of the Watchtower Society back then?
I feel that the only honest position to be taken is that the Watchtower Society is still, like the rest of us, studying the Bible and trying to find the real truth of God’s Word. Until that is finally achieved, if that should ever come to pass, honest debate and personal study of the Bible should be encouraged – not treated as an act that deserves punishment and banishment from the rest of Jehovah’s people.

http://ex-jw.com/elder-shares-honest-opinions

He told me in subsequent emails that the use of majority voting by the Governing Body is the best evidence that they are not truly led by the Holy Spirit. A "truth" is truth and should be self-evident to anyone in the group who has divine guidance.

11

Did you ever voice disagreement at the Watchtower study?

by MrMonroe in

it was only after leaving that i realised just how absurd and inaccurate many of the statements in the wt study really are.

the tag-team application of "this generation" is a classic example.. i'm interested to know if anyone who was in "good standing" actually did speak up at a meeting and challenge what's in the study.

what was the reaction?.

Juan Viejo2

Exactly right, Outlaw.

Trying to raise controversy during a meeting is a self-defeating proposition. All that happens is that everyone in the Kingdom Hall will think that you are just being disruptive and ill-behaved and will not hear anything that you have to say. It's a fast track to being DF'd.

When I was in (so many years ago) there were two occasions when someone tried to disrupt a meeting with an out of order comment.

One was during a public talk (subject long forgotten). Some non-JW visitor stood up in the middle of the brother's talk and said, "May I ask a question about what you just said?" The brother politely asked if he could hold his question until after the talk and the two could meet at the back of the Hall to discuss it. "No, I want you to answer it now!" was the reply. The brother lowered his head for a moment and then looked up. "No. Please hold your question for now. I only have a few minutes left to cover the rest of the material and I do not want to extend this meeting and inconvenience the other brothers and sisters." For a brief moment there was a silent pause between the two men. Finally, the fellow in the audience replied, "Well, OK. I guess that will be alright," and then sat down. After the public talk, the speaker and the disruptive man met out in the parking lot and had a rather long and heated discussion while the rest of us sat through another boring Watchtower study. It certainly would have been more fun to be outside listening to the two men arguing.

The other time was at a Tuesday night book study held in someone's home. One of the sisters decided to bring her non-JW husband along (he might have been driving her). Someone found him a spare copy of the book we were using. He was quiet and sat on a spare folding chair just outside the ring of brothers and sisters. At some point during the study, one of Daniel's or Ezekiel's prophecies was being discussed. He raised his hand and then very forcefully asked, "Do you people really believe these fairy tales mean something? I don't mean to be rude, but this is all baloney. How can you sit there and just read this stuff like it was real? I'm sorry, but you'll have to excuse me. I'll wait outside for [his wife] until your meeting is over. But I can't sit through any more of this." That was it. He got up, went outside and smoked a cigarette. The poor sister was so embarrassed and explained, "He tends to speak his mind. I know he didn't mean to offend anyone."

That fellow saw through the WT BS in 20 minutes. For the rest of us it often takes years - or even a lifetime. That book study was the subject of KH gossip for months afterward.

143

Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)

by TD in

jw
friends

in george orwell's novel 'nineteen eighty-four' the capitulation of the principal protagonist is portrayed in his willingness to assent to the proposition that two and two make five.

once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.

nineteen eighty-four is in many ways, a very depressing read.. a charge commonly leveled at jehovah's witnesses is that the type of mind control envisioned by orwell has been and continues to be used on them.

Juan Viejo2

The problem with the WT Society is that they equate "new light" with telling lies about the "old light." By saying that Russell and his followers "were looking forward to 1914," when in fact they were really looking to 1881, 1884, and back at 1799, is not "new light" - it's lying!

This applies to Beth Sarim, the Generations teaching, the 1925 and 1975 failed prophecies. Read the publications of those times and you can see in black and white exactly what the Watchtower said and taught. To tell the stories any differently than what actually happened can not be defined as "new light!" Making up new stories and the telling everyone now that those are the facts - is, by any logic at all, LYING!

They should republish the Proclaimers book and relabel it as, "A fictional retelling of the history of the Jehovah's Witnesses, based in part on actual events."

16

"Judicial committee"

by Newborn in

jw
friends

it strongly bothers, upsets and irritates me that they call it judicial committee!!!

as if it's a real supreme court with real lawyers and judges.

are they even aloud to call it judicial???.

Juan Viejo2

Over the past few nights on the Rachel Maddow show on MSNBC, she has been on assignment in Afghanistan. Richard Engel, NBC correspondent has been her guide during her visit and also makes additional commentary.

The subject of why the Aghani people seem to tolerate the Taliban has come up several times. Engel explained how the execution of justice was one major reason. If someone wants justice in the government courts, he has to wait months or even years to even be heard, and then the justice is often weak and inconclusive. If someone is demanding a repayment for a loss in the government courts, all the defendant has to do is say they have nothing. The judges look at the plaintiff and basically say, "Hey, you win. But what do you want us to do. The guilty party says he has nothing so we can not demand that he pay you or return your stuff."

On the other hand, the Taliban come through a village to collect money and to dispense justice. The people seem to love their "sharia" justice because it is quick and effective. The same case as above would end like this: "Hey, you win. The guilty party says he has nothing. We will chop off his hand this time as a lesson to him - unless you want to forgive the debt. If not, and he does it again to someone else, we will come back and cut off his head." There are no appeals and penalties are applied right then and there in public.

The general consensus is that although the Talibani are fanatics and take their religious beliefs too far for this modern age, that they tend to be impartial, always play by their own rules, and apply penalties immediately. They can settle all of the disputes in a village in a matter of hours. Everything is out in public so that their methods are well known and everyone knows what could happen to them if they break a law and the Taliban come back to their town.

Ancient Israel's judges apparently followed the same principles. Hold court in public, make a judgment, and then dispense the penalties or forgive the debtor or the wrong doer. They had cities of refuge for those who fell under certain guidelines - and they had to basically put themselves under house arrest for up to 7 years before they would be fully forgiven.

The JW judicial committees are completely back-assward from that approach. Keep everything under cover, lock away any notes or documentation, keep everyone in the Kingdom Hall in the dark about what happened and why a certain judgment was passed. Oh, was Brother Smith DF'd because he spoke out against the "generations" teaching, or did he sodomize half of the boys in the Kingdom Hall? Did Sister Jones get DF'd because she attended a wedding for her niece at the local Catholic Church? Or because she got caught selling her body for $20 over at the "No-Tell Motel"? No one knows because the Society's rules don't really allow for open and fair judicial hearings or dispensation of judgment.

166

2010 district convention badge

by thundarr in

jw
friends

hi all.

do anyone a scan of the badge card.

i move and it convention time ths weekend an need to replace my family card before friday.

Juan Viejo2

You are so right Black Sheep! Bane should start his own BB / Forum and call it RealJehovahsWitnesses.com or .net or .whatever.

Might be fun to go over and lurk every so often just to see what they post. Of course, like Yahoo Answers and Topix, the odds are that they will just quote Watchtower paragraphs to each other or ask inane and superficial questions.

Can you imagine members of a real JW forum asking questions like:

What are the scriptural proofs that support 607 BC and 1914 AD as significant dates?
Can someone on the board explain the new "Generations" teaching to me?
Did Fred Franz really say, under oath, that "Jehovah is the editor of the Watchtower"?
Anyone wonder what the GB and FDS plan to do with all of the money they are getting for the Brooklyn properties?
Has anyone driven by and taken pictures of the house in San Diego that was once known as Beth Sarim? Can you give directions?
My father now claims to be one of the "Anointed." How can I be sure he isn't lying, especially since he is such a jerk?
Will I be called before the elders because I just bought a Dodge Viper (Corvette, Mustang GT, Aston-Martin, Porsche 911) to use in service?
Does anyone else get as bored as I do during the WT study? Does everyone actually study the articles before the meeting?

17

Oil spill in the Apocalypse?

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

i've found several similar youtube videos, here is one of them:.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgqc-uabits.

quite interesting how well the words of revelation 8:8,9 fits what's happening.

Juan Viejo2

I've often wondered if Jehovah's Witnesses who are caught up in an earthquake, flood, hurricane, or fire don't wonder just before they die if what they are going through was actually Armageddon.

Think about some of the unfortunate JWs who might have been killed during Hurricane Katrina, the East Indian tsunami, or the recent earthquakes in Haiti and Chile. Many of them may have felt as the buildings came crashing down around them, as the earth opened up, or as the winds and floods swamped over them, sucking them down into the churning, cold, and murky waters - that they were actually going through and dying at Armageddon.

What if they had been faithful JWs their whole lives? Did they wonder why Jehovah was killing them? Why wasn't he reaching down and saving them or covering them with some sort of inpenetratable bubble and electronic force field?

Did some of them who were righteous in their own hearts wonder what they had done wrong to bring down Jehovah's wrath upon them? Did they wonder as they took their last breaths if they had missed seeing Jesus and the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse because they weren't paying attention?

I wonder what any of us who have been JWs in the past, or are undercover apostates now, will wonder if we were wrong and should have stayed in the "Truth" - just after a big earthquake has taken place and an inescapable tidal wave hits our home? Maybe.

But the odds are that to the rest of the JWs and the world - it was just another natural disaster and the JWs who were killed were just poor unfortunate victims who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.